1963? Hydrodyne custome deluxe 1700 restoration thread

Discussion in 'Restoration Projects & Questions' started by BEFU-Brian, Feb 10, 2015.

  1. BEFU-Brian

    BEFU-Brian Established Hydrodyner

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2015
    Messages:
    136
    Location:
    Columbia city, IN by Fort Wayne
    Boat Model and Year:
    86 Formula 272LS, 1963 17' Hydrodyne custom deluxe
    Yes, stiffness is due to the distance between the outer skins. If I reduce the thickness of the core, but replace it with extra layers of roving or glass, the stiffness will be the same or higher. Good ole moment of inertia equation and that forth power in it. Strength should be the same independent of thickness (core adds little to no measurable strength). I think that is correct about the strength, will have to check. Either way, doesn't change anything, not planning on making it any thinner than original. Sorry if I did not come across on that clearly.

    I will have to see what original is. In the layup they mention the hull as being 1 - 1/8" thick, going to be hard to do that with a 1" core with roving. That is why I guessed at 3/4". I was only planning on going thinner core if I were to build it up with that much more glass. But thinking about it, 1/4" of glass is quite a bit of layup and weight!

    Didn't these have a flat floor in back? I thought after the core was done, they put in stringers to give a flat structure to attach the flat floor to. That is what I am still planning on doing, will know more once we tear it apart.

    I do see outboards as killing the inboards eventually. There are now 400 HP outboards out there that have a good warranty and are way lighter than the inboards. Of course, the cost of putting 3 or 4 of these motors on the back of a center console gets pricey when you are in the 6 figure range!

    That and I love the sound of my twin 350 small blocks with through hulls on my formula.

    Brian
     
  2. jim

    jim Hydrodyne 18 Specialist

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2006
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    2,294
    Location:
    FL
    Boat Model and Year:
    77 Dyne 18 I/O converted to Outboard
    I like the plan. The boat will look original.

    If I did not address a question, it is because I don't know the answer.

    jim
     
  3. BEFU-Brian

    BEFU-Brian Established Hydrodyner

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2015
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    136
    Location:
    Columbia city, IN by Fort Wayne
    Boat Model and Year:
    86 Formula 272LS, 1963 17' Hydrodyne custom deluxe
    Made some more anti-progress I guess. Got the boat into the garage which was a chore. Snow storm coming, so I figure lets get it on the frame and bunk it up so we can push it into the garage. Well, dark out, cold and windy, ran out of patience and didn't work as planned. Outer bunks were just "kinda" placed to keep hull from rolling which put to much weight along the keel so the frame bent. Also found out I left my floor jack at work, so this was all done with a bottle jack. This side loaded the casters which led to two of them shattering with the boat 1/3 of the way into the garage. So we just slid it by pushing and pry on the frame with a 2x4 until we could close the door. Not fun, but it is done. We left it sitting on the cradle while it thawed and we cleaned it out to help support the bottom. Probably wise with how soft the core is once thawed.

    Took a few days to thaw out and then the cleaning wash kinda finished. The plywood floor in back was of course bad as shown in the pics. It had been crushed in around the stingers until it was pressed into the shape of the core underneath it. We new this when we looked at it the first time. Core did not sound good in parts also, so as mentioned, counted on it all being bad. It looks like a shelf paper or some type of liner was installed underneath the brown outdoor carpeting that was in it. Nasty, but this we probably removed a couple hundred pounds of wet wood and leaves.
     

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  4. BEFU-Brian

    BEFU-Brian Established Hydrodyner

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Columbia city, IN by Fort Wayne
    Boat Model and Year:
    86 Formula 272LS, 1963 17' Hydrodyne custom deluxe
    The plywood in back came out rather easily with a shovel. The starboard side of the boat feels pretty solid, right up to the center keel. The left side is sad. When you put weight on it you can hear it exhale in back somewhere and when you step off it will breath back in. I am starting to suspect the core might have been compromised...... LOL. No, it is gone as I suspected. So we removed the engine cover, rear fire wall and lower corner pieces to open up the engine compartment. swept out all the junk from removing the plywood floor so it will start drying. Got the front seat removed and that was my first moment of dismay. I was wondering how the seat base was held in, did not realize the seat base up to the front bow was one piece, all glassed in. Not going to be fun to tear that out, but we will. Right now I have it blocked back up and the cradle is back out from under it. Going to work on reconstructing it properly this time since I am not out in sub zero weather. Once that is under it, we will get the motor pulled out and finish removing the seat base / front floor. Fun fun fun.

    Hmm, need to remember to resize my photos first. Sorry, I forgot to.

    IMG_2405[1].JPG
     
  5. tj309

    tj309 Composite Specialist

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    396
    Location:
    LA (lower Alabama)
    Boat Model and Year:
    1972 18' Hydrodyne
    Ski Team:
    Former Hodag Water shows
    Brian - your work is just beginning. What it looks like to me is that you are going to have to remove EVERYTHING from that hull and have only a shell left. Been there and done that as you can see in my thread "1972 Keel Up Restoration". Once you get all the crap out the fun begins - but you already know that since you did that big boat with the twin V-8's. I have always wanted a boat like that but for a lake it is overkill and I am a lake guy. Twin rigs on a small boat like a Hydrodyne on a lake is like a Ferrari on a race track but no top end - just handling and the pleasure of driving something with 2 motors. That boat of yours will be so cool when it is done considering the air scoop. Keep us posted.
     
  6. jim

    jim Hydrodyne 18 Specialist

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    2,294
    Location:
    FL
    Boat Model and Year:
    77 Dyne 18 I/O converted to Outboard
    That front seat mount is quite elegant compared to an 18. I never saw one before. Your planned restore should produce a very durable boat.

    jim
     
  7. kevinb

    kevinb Elite Hydrodyner

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2006
    Messages:
    432
    Location:
    Brookfield, WI
    Boat Model and Year:
    75 HD 18' I/O SOLD & 1985 HD 20' (Boat #2) I/O 350
    Ski Team:
    NA
    I have not seen (or paid too much attention) to the dissembly of a pre 1968 Hydrodyne cored hull other than the 18' Skier or 18 Tournament Skier. It would appear that these had a plywood deck mounted to stringers, and then a lay-up of balsa core below? The early (pre-70) Hydrodyne 18' outboards and 18' tournament skier i/o bubble tops (for the instrument cluster) did not have a stringer and floor combo. The seats were anchored to the core through the roven glass) and the core was usually turned to worm dirt with water intrusion. Does your boat have a raised floor above the core? If so, interesting.

    Spent the better part of two years bringing back my 1985 Hydrodyne 20 i/o (in resto section of this web-site) and had some tough working conditions with the harsh winters in Wisconsin(removing frozen transom plywood was not fun). We're looking forward to a full summer with 85 20 HD i/o fully opperational this year.

    Good luck with your project and ask lots of questions, this site usually has the right answers.

    Kevin-
     
  8. BEFU-Brian

    BEFU-Brian Established Hydrodyner

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2015
    Messages:
    136
    Location:
    Columbia city, IN by Fort Wayne
    Boat Model and Year:
    86 Formula 272LS, 1963 17' Hydrodyne custom deluxe
    Made some good progress last few night. Got the frame straightened out, replaced the broken casters and redid the bunks. The frame is 6' long, so 12" of wood hanging off of each end. This gives good support to the first 8' of the boat and the bottom really starts to curve up at that point. So I added a keel support further up to take the leverage weight off the middle of the boat floor, which seems to work pretty good. The 2x's extend about a foot into the seat base area, definately supports the flat planing area of the hull. I put the back of the boat frame on a couple of furniture moving dollies until the motor is out. Then I will remove those and set the frame back down on the two corner casters. Either way, we were able to move the boat around in the garage.

    And yes, this thing is going to be stripped out! Motor, drive, transom assembly, trim pump, gas tank... everything. Interested in the transom, so far it sounds really solid. Drive doesn't flex, no soft wood where the drive goes through, we will see. Need to see what the cutout is as I have to redo it to mercruiser specs anyways. Of course, I have 700 HP pushing a 6,500 pound boat with two drives that also has a 2" thick transom. So hard to image this thing failing with a 130 HP 4 cylinder in it. After core is redone, I will be adding two stringers in the engine compartment since the mercruiser has a front motor mount I need to tie in. cradle.jpg
     
  9. BEFU-Brian

    BEFU-Brian Established Hydrodyner

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2015
    Messages:
    136
    Location:
    Columbia city, IN by Fort Wayne
    Boat Model and Year:
    86 Formula 272LS, 1963 17' Hydrodyne custom deluxe
    Hull construction: What I have I learned or read, is the hull is constructed as follows:
    Gelcoat, then 9 oz glass cloth with a 12" overlap at the keel (doubled up 10" each side of keel). This is followed by a layer of 25 oz woven roving, which was "overlapped from spray rail to spray rail." I am taking this to mean it is 1 layer thick on the sides, two layers thick on the bottom between the spray rails. So the bottom where I am working, that is a overlap layer of 9 oz cloth and then two layers of 25 oz roving. Then they applied another lap layer of 25 oz roving, so same layout as the 9 oz cloth with a 12" overlap?
    Then the spruce keel was added and the balsa core after that. Once the core was set and cured, another layer of 9 oz cloth was applied and a final layer of 25 oz lapped woven roving. The hull bottom should be about 1 1/8" thick at the core.

    This kind of makes sense, as I can see a lap layer in the roving running kinda parrallel to the keel, maybe about a foot away from it? When I remove the top layer of laminate, I will have to measure it and try to figure out what the layers are. But I am expecting to find a single layer of roving towards the outside, double near the keel, all laid over 9 oz cloth which you might be able to see against the core. depends on how wet the layup was done.

    That is what I have found so far where the hull layup is concerned. I will review the stringers and bench mount in a separate post.

    Right now my plan is to strip the core out and prep it for a new core. I am thinking about applying a 1.5 oz mat layer and set the core into that before it cures. The mat should provide a good surface for the core to press into and bond well. The 1.5 oz matt, 12.5 oz / yd will also give a nice strength boost to the floor. I will add the top laminate thicker than whatever I remove, depends on the roving weight I buy. Right now the top layer feels thin since the core has rotted and it is very flexible. I will add some weight here and tie the two together with rows of roving between the cores to add strength. Either way, I only plan on doing this once in my lifetime for this boat.

    Oh, last time this boat was licensed was in 91, so been sitting idle for quite some time. Been sitting almost as long as it had been running. Last time this thing was run, my 1986 Formula I restored was still a nice boat!
     
  10. BEFU-Brian

    BEFU-Brian Established Hydrodyner

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2015
    Messages:
    136
    Location:
    Columbia city, IN by Fort Wayne
    Boat Model and Year:
    86 Formula 272LS, 1963 17' Hydrodyne custom deluxe
    So with the hull and core described previously, this is what I see above that.
    In the engine area of the boat, there really isn't much since the engine is only attached to the transom. On the port side is a raised section of glassed in plywood that was the battery mount. On the starboard side is a raised plywood piece that is the fuel tank mount. These will both be replaced, no sense in changing this. But I will be adding two short stringers or knees to run up to the front of the engine space. These will tie into a mini bulk head for the front engine mount. More of a cross member than a bulk head, but not sure what else to call it.
    In the back 6' of the cockpit, there is three raised stringers. The other two look to be 3/4" solid wood and were just added as a floor support. Layer of glass over them and the ends left open. Might have been sealed at one time, but it is now gone. The center one looks like 1.5" to 2" thick and I am not sure if this one is on top of the core, or if it is part of the stringer system. I will post about that as we tear it out later. Either way, it is also soaked, rotted and the glass crushes when you step on it. These three stringers along with the hull provided the support for the flat rear flooring. It looks like a piece of 1/2 plywood was laid down on each side. It ran from the seat base back to the engine compartment. The met on the center stringer and ran all the way across to where the met the curving up section of the hull. At this point they were covered in a single layer of fiberglass cloth and tabbed in along the the hull side with fiberglass mat about 6" wide. This 6" wide strip of fiberglass matt was able to be pulled off of the hull form itself which surprised me. Either the floor was replaced at some point, or the matt was not wetted out enough as it did not completely bond to the hull. It was not loose, but I was able to strip it off. A wire wheel and it will be ready for new glass. The rear flooring is also left open at the rear. It appears that any inside water can flow into and out of that cavity. Any wood that is placed back there will have to be glassed all around. Still makes me nervouse, but the wood replacement would not be too bad in the future if the core and stringers were solid. Could do it in a weekend.

    The seat base is interesting. It is one piece all the way up into the front of the bow. I believe this is the air chamber that they discussed that kept the boat afloat if swamped. Current practice does not allow an air chamber, as they only float as long as they hold air. I plan to fill this front void with expanding urethane foam to make sure this boat never sinks. I will also be adding more foam in the very bow and in the open area of the engine compartment since I am adding a heavier drive option to it.

    Back to the seat base. The whole thing looks to be molded as one piece. It has about a 1" recessed lip all the way around it that matches up to the molded boat hull. It looks like it was set in place, and then tabbed in with 3" strips of glass matt. 2" on the side of the hull and about 1" overlapping onto the lip of the seat base. From what I could tell, two layers of matt was applied. I did not find any bonding on the underside of the seat base, just the tabbing. Of course this was over 50 years ago, so who knows what is left. I now have the seat base loose up to where the vertical part is. My next step is to get this vertical part loose and the first couple inches beyond that. At that point, I am going to cut the part and leave the raised section in the nose of the boat. This will allow me access to all the core, prevent having to work up under the deck or remove the whole deck and give an area to mend it that really can not be seen. I am not worried about an air leak as I am going to fill it with positive flotation anyways.

    That pretty much brings us up to where we currently sit with the boat and findings. It is a big project which I new it would be. Only surprise so far was how large the front seat base was, but that was minor. Oh, seat base will be reinforced also after it is removed, I do not like how spongy it feels. Will also pour it with a higher density urethane foam after it is reinstalled above new core. seat base a.jpg
     

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